BBC Radio 2 “Faith in the Nation”
22 October 2002
Interview with Brian Hayes:
Part of BBC Radio 2's 'Faith in the Nation' series.
Brian Hayes: Another suicide bomb killed at least 14 people and injured 59 others when a car exploded next to a crowded bus in the rush hour. As the cycle of violence continues, sadly it seems that the writer Jonathan Swift's observation that we have
"just enough religion to make us hate one another but not enough to make us love one another"
has never seemed truer. But this week on Radio 2, "Faith in the Nation" is offering a better understanding of one of the great faiths of the world, Judaism, and I am joined now by the Chief Rabbi Dr Jonathan Sacks.
Chief Rabbi, when you actually hear in the news what we heard yesterday of another bomb in Israel, do you think you react differently if you're Jewish?
Chief Rabbi: Well I think so because the Jewish people really is a worldwide kind of single extended family, so I think that all of us in Britain feel a deep personal involvement in that kind of tragedy. We all have friends there. We have relatives there and it really is shattering. We were all shell-shocked yesterday. We were at a meeting. We said psalms; held a minute's silence. But of course what the news fails to capture is the ongoing devastation of the lives of so many families. We hear it and we think about it for a day, but they have to live with the consequences for a lifetime.
Brian Hayes: Yet the next 24 hours could bring the same thing - must be the feeling that they have and that you have?
Chief Rabbi: You know, the sheer futility of this is just mind-numbing, and that is, I think, why we pray for peace. We work for peace and I really feel that Judaism is actually a religion of peace.
Brian Hayes: When you think about the people in Israel, are you thinking about what an extended family?
Chief Rabbi: I'm sure. I have two brothers there. My family - four generations back - came from there. I've got all sorts of connections and we all do. I visit it frequently and it's just our collective home, as a people. It was in the days of the Bible. It is again today and we do feel these things deeply. It doesn't mean to say that we don't feel other people's tragedies but there's a difference between a tragedy that affects a stranger and a tragedy that affects one of your family.
Brian Hayes: Can you explain what it means to be a Jew in Britain today? Is it predominantly a religion thing, or is it maybe also a race thing?
Chief Rabbi: Well Judaism isn't a race and -
Brian Hayes: I know there was some controversy about that some twenty years ago, wasn't there?
Chief Rabbi: Well, it's an absolute nonsense. Because, for instance, if you were to stand in the middle of Jerusalem you would see there Jews from all races, from 103 different countries: white Jews from Europe; black Jews from Ethiopia; Chinese Jews; Indian Jews. Judaism isn't a race. We've been scattered across the world. We admit converts and we've had converts from virtually every race and country that we have been part of. So Judaism is something that really, really transcends race and has no racial element in it at all.
Brian Hayes: What about the importance of 'Britishness'?
Chief Rabbi: That, for Jews, is incredibly important. I think, because of our long history of persecution, we recognise in Britain one of the most tolerant countries in the world, in fact the world's 'tutor in tolerance'. Figures like Milton and Locke built the environment for a tolerant world and we love it. We sing the national anthem at all our gatherings. We say a prayer for the Queen and the royal family every Saturday in the synagogue. I think we love this country and feel very loyal to it.
Brian Hayes: How do you balance, then, religion and nationality?
Chief Rabbi: I think religions, the great religions, transcend nationality and they mean that we have multiple connections. For instance, as Jews we have connections with Jewish communities through the world. As 'Brits' we feel very strongly identified with British culture. Britain is a culture. Judaism is a religion. So, you know, they intersect in creative ways.
Brian Hayes: You talked a moment ago about people who have been converted to Judaism. But it is not like other religions and some non-Jews don't really understand why there isn't more - as Christians would put it - evangelising: encouraging people into the faith.
Chief Rabbi: I actually think, Brian, this is the single most important message Judaism has for the world, and it is a message of principled tolerance. We don't hold, and we have never held, that you have to be Jewish to get to heaven. Therefore, we don't believe that you have to convert and that is why we have never fought a crusade or a jihad or a holy war to impose our faith on others. But we do say to anyone who want to convert - 'By all means. The doors are open.' And many people do convert, all the time.
Brian Hayes: Is it a difficult procedure?
Chief Rabbi: Well, it's difficult in the sense that Judaism isn't, let's say, 39 articles of faith or five practices. It's a bit like saying, Brian, that if you wanted to become an Italian, how long would it take for you to pass as an Italian? It's like a total civilisation. So it takes a while but we do welcome converts and, to me, they are some of the most precious members of our people.
Brian Hayes: People say we live in a global village these days. Well, we do really, don't we? The world is being made smaller by technology and easy travel arrangements. But with all of that there doesn't seem to have come a lot of understanding. We still have the challenge of getting people from different cultures, from different religions, to actually understand each other. This is something you deal with of course in your recent book, The Dignity of Difference.
Chief Rabbi: Well, it's true. You know, we can now instantaneously communicate across the world but I'm not sure if we can communicate with our next-door neighbour - sometimes even with our children! So I think communication is something in which the technology has improved but the human capacity has certainly not improved at anything like that rate. Therefore, I felt this is going to be one of the main sources of conflict in the 21st century. This is why I wrote my booked called The Dignity of Difference which really argues what the title says, which is that our world is enhanced by people not like us - just like English cuisine has been enhanced by all the new influences it has had in the last twenty years.
Brian Hayes: And, I suppose, if we put a few of our questions and your answers together, we can focus in on a passage in your book which seemed to have dismayed a few people. I'll just read it for those who haven't read it.
"God has spoken to mankind in many languages, through Judaism to the Jews, Christianity to Christians, Islam to Muslims. No one creed has a monopoly of spiritual truth. In heaven there is truth: on earth there are truths. God is greater than religion. He is only partially comprehended by any faith."
As I said, that dismayed a number of people, didn't it?
Chief Rabbi: Well I think it's true actually and I think it should be the source of the kind of tolerance we're going to need if we're going to avoid quite devastating wars in this century. I mean, we know that religious extremism can fuel a great deal of hatred and I believe that the early chapters of the Bible tell us something very clear and very simple which is that God is the God of all mankind. But He doesn't ask all mankind to share the same religion.
Brian Hayes: Was the criticism, the debate indeed, about what you said in your book not all that much different from the debate which goes on in other faiths when somebody comes out and puts forward a particular argument? For instance, the Christian church is made up of a number of denominations. The Jewish faith is made up of a number of strands of belief?
Chief Rabbi: Yes. What is essential here is a kind of what I call being 'bilingual'. It is important that we have things in common and all human beings have something in common: they have a need for safety, for food, for education and for dignity. And those are the things that are commonalities and they are sort of emphasised in things like the United Nations Declaration on Human Rights. Then we have differences. Now the question is: how do we see difference? Do we see it as threatening, or do we see it as enlarging?
My status as an English-speaker is not threatened by the fact that there are 5,999 other languages spoken in the world. On the contrary. I suspect that each one of them says something that probably couldn't be said in any other language. So I see difference as a source of enrichment and what has bedevilled human history, and for which the price is now far too high, is seeing difference as a threat.
Brian Hayes: But are those in different faiths - you talk about an absolute truth - I think that's something that's referred to in the Jewish faith: it certainly is in parts of the Christian faith -
Chief Rabbi: Yes. I believe absolutely in the concept of absolute truth. What I say in the book is: Don't confuse absolute truth with universal truth, or a unique truth. I have an absolute obligation to my children. I don't have a universal obligation to every child. Someone else's child calls forth certain things from me - but not the same as my child. That's the difference. It's a subtle difference but it's a vital one. An obligation can be absolute but it need not be universal.
Brian Hayes: I've mentioned a couple of times criticism of your book within your own community. Did you expect to get that reaction?
Chief Rabbi: I think that when you make a bold statement, inviting communication across boundaries, you have to take the flak. Why do you do it? Because it's urgent, because it's necessary and because that is what is called leadership.
Brian Hayes: I read in some newspapers that in later editions you were going to recant, go back on what you'd said?
Chief Rabbi: No. I will explain but not retract. I can't retract. We are facing a situation in which the future of life on earth is being threatened this century as in no other. Why? Because we now have a situation in which quite small sub-national groups may, in the foreseeable future and perhaps already, have access to weapons of mass destruction. Now, you would have to be blind, I think, not to recognise here a major danger. Of course each one of us has a role to play: politicians in working out strategy; security forces in working out screening - but I think religious leaders also have a role to play because religion is a factor in these conflicts. In the 20th century it was capitalism versus communism; democracies against fascism. Today, political ideology is less a motivator of people and religious ideology much more so.
Brian Hayes: Do you think that there are serious conflicts between religions?
Chief Rabbi: Well of course. I mean you will find that behind virtually every conflict zone in the last ten years. I don't know of any real exception. That's what happened in Bosnia. That's what happened in Chechnya. That's what happened in Kosovo. That's what's happening in the Middle East. That is [what happened] even in Bali. I mean, you know that Bali, where this terrible tragedy took place, is a little island of Hindus in a vast set of Islamic countries and really Bali is Bali because Hindus escaped there to be free of religious persecution. That was a long time. So you see how long-lasting some of these conflicts can be.
Brian Hayes: Yes. Bali only very recently, and of course September 11th last year: there are people who say that the reason why that happened was because of the Arab-Israeli conflict and that the threat of global terrorism will not go away until there is peace in Israel. Well, there are all kinds of reasons for wanting peace in Israel but do you agree with that view, that there is a direct connection?
Chief Rabbi: I not only don't agree with it, I would even go so far as to call it a deliberate lie. The reason I say so is because it was very clear to me and I imagine to you, Brian, at the time (and it's become actually verified) that the 9/11 attack was planned: the planning of it started in 1999. Now in 1999 the Israel-Palestinian peace process was at its height. So whatever was the cause of that attack, it was not Israel.
Brian Hayes: Not Israel, but there are those who could easily use, and do use, that as - I was going to say 'an excuse' but they would say 'a reason' why they could take such action.
Chief Rabbi: Every authoritarian ruler, every totalitarian state in history, deals with internal opposition by blaming a scapegoat. Sometimes it's Jews; sometimes it's other people. But if we fall for that propaganda, we are perpetuating totalitarianism.
Brian Hayes: Let's talk about tolerance for a moment. Because of the Holocaust, I suppose more than any other group of people the Jews know what it's like to be oppressed.
Chief Rabbi: Yes.
Brian Hayes: That was oppression writ large. Now that, I suppose, some people would say could lead you to be more tolerant?
Chief Rabbi: Yes.
Brian Hayes: But, on the other hand, it could have an opposite effect and produce a lot of intolerance?
Chief Rabbi: Yes.
Brian Hayes: How do you think it divides up?
Chief Rabbi: I will tell you very clearly because one of the greatest privileges I have had since becoming Chief Rabbi is to get to know quite well our Holocaust survivors. They are called 'The 45s Group' and I have got to tell you that these people are absolutely wonderful. That shattering experience has made them identify with all victims of persecution throughout the world. Therefore, they were the ones most involved, most sympathetic for instance, to Muslims in Bosnia and in Kosovo. That experience has made them tolerant. But 'tolerant' from a depth of experience that I don't think either of us can really understand because they just know what it feels like in their bones to be the subject of repression or attempted genocide. And they were the ones who shared their experience, when we had National Holocaust Day, with the Rwandans and the Bosnians and the Cambodians. So it has certainly made them much more tolerant - but almost beyond the capacity of that word tolerance. They have a deep humanity.
Brian Hayes: There is something that puzzles a lot of people and that is that when we talk about tolerance, as you just have, it is difficult to look at the Israeli state and see tolerance being demonstrated?
Chief Rabbi: Well what has sadly happened - and this really is tragic - is that Israel, for ten years from Madrid in 1991 to Camp David and Taba in 2001, made the most strenuous and remarkable efforts to make peace that I think any country ever has. Look, it took ten years for Israel to move from seeing the PLO as a terrorist organisation with whom it was illegal to have contact to offering them a state of their own in 97 per cent of the West Bank with East Jerusalem as its capital.
Now, if you look at the history of France and Germany, for instance, it took them 300 years. It took Israel 10 years to be willing to make peace with their neighbours. And the reaction to that peace was, as you know, from 2001 to today, an outbreak of violence and terror the like of which I don't think any modern country has ever experienced. Those attacks are taking place every single day. So what more can Israel do? It has offered peace. It has gone the extra mile, the extra ten miles, for peace. And I pray, I really pray, that the Palestinian people will have a leadership strong enough and visionary enough to make that peace because, if they don't, then I think that they are depriving their own children of future and hope.
Brian Hayes: I mentioned the Holocaust just a few moments ago. There are, I am told, many Jews who actually question the existence of God because of the Holocaust. Can you be a Jew and not believe in God?
Chief Rabbi: Well, you know, a Jewish atheist is something very special. A Jewish atheist is somebody who doesn't believe in God but, on the other hand, argues with Him all the time: goes to synagogue on the Day of Atonement and so on and so forth. We argue with God.
Brian Hayes: I hear a lot of the basis of Jewish humour there?
Chief Rabbi: Well - Jewish humour is what kept us alive. I have met Holocaust survivors who said that it as a sense of humour that allowed them to survive Auschwitz. So a Jewish atheist is absolutely, by any other standards, pretty religious!
Brian Hayes: Many people in this country find religion of any type totally irrelevant. We live in an increasingly secular society, I think it is fair to say. I wonder why you think it is and what difference Judaism can make in an age when I suppose the chief religion is consumerism?
Chief Rabbi: Mmhm! Well we have a wonderful antidote to consumerism. It's magnificent. I recommend it. It's the world's greatest rest cure. It is called the Sabbath. So for 24 hours, from Friday night to Saturday night, no phones, no faxes, no television, no using a car, no shopping, no money. It's a day that we spend with family. It's a day that we go to the synagogue and identity with community. It's a fun day - and it's a holy day. And I think that it puts everything else into perspective.
What is absolutely fascinating about a consumer society is that we get richer and richer but not measurably happier. Why? Because all the advertisements all the time are making us conscious of what we don't have. What the Sabbath does is to make us conscious of what we do have. We have friends. We have family. We have life itself. We thank God for them. And I would prescribe a weekly dose of the Sabbath as a perfect antidote to consumerism.
Brian Hayes: Thank you very much. That was the Chief Rabbi Dr Jonathan Sacks and I was talking to him as part of our 'Faith in the Nation' series this week.
We will continue our exploration of the Jewish faith on Friday when I will be talking to a young Jewish couple who left London four years ago to emigrate to Israel. We'll hear about their experiences.
Comments that have come in:
this is from Nicky from Bushey in Hertfordshire:
"I'm not Jewish but I've worked closely with the Jewish community for many years. I think they are wonderful people. We could learn a lot from them. They have a strong sense of community and a commitment to the older generation that we seem to have lost."
Jason Billimore of Pontypool in South Wales says:
"Re the interview with the Chief Rabbi: we all need to realise that until we sort out the hatred between Jews and Arabs, the world is in trouble. They've got to get round the table. It's another Northern Ireland and it's going to go around in circles for eternity."