DON MCLEAN
And a special welcome to our Jewish listeners, of which there are many; busy time for you, followers of the Jewish faith and I'm delighted to tell you, all of you, that people of all faiths in fact that our very good friend, Dr Jonathan Sacks, the Chief Rabbi is here in the studio now:
Good to see you again. It must be over a year since you've actually graced our programme:

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
It's always one of the high points of my year, Don.

DON MCLEAN
Ah, you say the sweetest things.
Now it's happy New Year is the first thing that I say to you.
That was last week was it?

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
Last week we had Rosh Hashannah which is our New Year. Yesterday we had our Yom Kippur, our Day of Atonement and we're looking forward to Tabernacles, our season of Autumn and the shed, the tabernacle with its roof of leaves and you know it's a lovely time of the year.

DON MCLEAN
So that's Succot and that's sort of the equivalent of our Harvest Festival I suppose is it?

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
Yes, sort of. I mean we take a palm branch and a citron and leaves of myrtle and willow just to remember the things that grow and then as I say we spend eight days in this temporary dwelling, a shed or something like that in the back garden getting quite chilly because you know the Israelites didn't have the English weather in mind when G-d gave Moses the Bible but it's just a moment when you thank G-d for being alive.

DON MCLEAN
I bet the kids love it don't they?

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
The kids love it. I think every Jewish festival is for kids really and I think that's the secret of how our four thousand year old faith stays young. You're as young as the thing you care most about and for us we care most about children.

DON MCLEAN
Yom Kippur, which was yesterday, that's a day of fasting:

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
It's a day of fasting 25 hours without food or drink which, knowing Jews as you do, is quite a privation. We spend almost the whole day in the synagogue and really saying sorry to G-d for the things we did wrong in the past year or the good things we didn't do and we say to Him: Please forgive us and give us the strength to begin again.

DON MCLEAN
So it's a day of confession really?

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
It's a day of confession. It's a day almost of - I kind of call it a psychological 'spring-clean' or an 'autumn-clean'. You know you get rid of all the rubbish of the past and ...

DON MCLEAN So do you feel a lot better today?

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
I feel a lot lighter, yes - spiritually if not physically.

DON MCLEAN
And the Chief Rabbi Dr Jonathan Sacks is here with me in the studio: The thing that's occupying all our minds at the moment is the hostage taking and Ken Bigley - everyone in the country praying for him. What can anyone say to comfort his family at this terrible time?

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
I think the fact that our prayers are with him and with them is perhaps in some way the most psychologically important.

You know I've met, sadly, and spent time with many victims of terror and there's no doubt that however terrible that is and it shatters lives and breaks families, the worst of all are the families of people taken hostage because there's no closure; there's a constant constant fear and distress and at the end of the day all you can do is be there for them and feel with them and for them and pray on their behalf.

DON MCLEAN
Well it doesn't seem as though there's any negotiation possible. In fact it was said on the News at 7 o'clock I believe, they don't even know who to negotiate with do they? It's not as though these people are taking hostages for a specific reason.

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
No, I think since 9/11 a new kind of violence has entered the world. We always had violence for the sake of gain which was called 'crime' and we had violence for the sake of advantage which was called 'war'. This is violence for the sake of violence. It's designed to be shown on television to hypnotise people and to terrify people but the terrorists have no game-plan whatsoever and that is, to my mind, what makes it an evil means to an evil end.

DON MCLEAN
And of course we must realise that it's not the Iraqi people that are taking these hostages. It's seems that there are foreigners in Iraq who are perpetrating all this terrorism:

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
Actually Don in a strange way it's the Iraqi people who are being held hostage because they want the chance to be free to rule themselves and create a future for their children and it's these outsiders who are wrecking it for them.

DON MCLEAN
I was pleased to see that people / members of the Muslim Council of Great Britain are actually getting involved. In fact they have actually gone over to Iraq to see what they can do. Were you pleased on that new development?

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
Absolutely. I think the Muslims Council of Great Britain have done exactly the right thing. I think it's incredibly important for us not to stereotype Muslims. This is a tiny extremist fringe and the overwhelming number of Muslims in Britain and throughout the world care about the value of life, the importance of law and justice, the sanctity of the human person and we should never ever brand all people alike.

DON MCLEAN
Well Islam preaches peace the way Christianity and Judaism preaches peace doesn't it?

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
Islam, like Christianity and Judaism, goes beyond that and says 'a single human life is like a whole universe'. So this really is a tragedy for Muslims as well as for the rest of us.

DON MCLEAN
But it is good, as far as Great Britain is concerned, that the Muslims are sticking their head up above the parapet:

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
In Britain we have a wonderful moderate Muslim community concerned to have good relations with other faiths, concerned to be good citizens of Britain and they deserve our admiration and our support.

DON MCLEAN
When it comes to hostage-taking of course it is terrible but recently we had that terrible situation in Russia where all those children were killed. I don't know about you - I was terribly touched by that. I was really upset by it myself.

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
Yes - at the end of the day children are the most vulnerable of the lot and when terrorists attack children that is when you know that terror is mindless, it is a desecration of religion and I think we right now have to convene the nations of the world and get a global campaign against terror because you know no one nation or no group of nations can fight it on their own. We have to fight this together in the name of humanity.

DON MCLEAN
But that was so terrible because children are our hope for the future. How can one explain or try to understand the depths that people would go to to secure an agenda; the Chechens feel that they needed desperate measures to bring things to a head?

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
No - terror is never the right tactic. It never advances your cause. It just discredits it and that's why we really have to fight it and say: Every conflict can be resolved peacefully - it can never be resolved by terror.

DON MCLEAN
... Dr Jonathan, every time you come on 'Good Morning Sunday' we talk about the conflict and the division between the Israelis and the Palestinians and every time it seems to get a little bit worse. There are still acts of war and aggression going on. Can there ever be an end to this conflict? Do you see an end to it?

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
Yes, we can. You know it's connected with what we were just speaking about before, namely children.

You've really got to ask a society 'What do you live for?' and so many of the ethnic conflicts, including the Middle East are about things in the past - people settling scores, feeling senses of injustice about the past.

A society that cares about children cares about the future and it says: Look, there's been bad stuff in the past. Let's draw a line over it. Let's work out a way of living together in the future. And the second both sides stop looking at the past and start thinking about the future there will be a readiness for peace on both sides and there is a solution to hand, a two-state solution, which I think was explored four years ago and is as near as we're going to get.

DON MCLEAN
It seemed to be going well didn't it four years ago and then it all went wrong again:

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
It came so close. You know I've spoken with some of the people who took part in those negotiations and they tell me it really came so close. Almost all the Palestinians wanted to accept the deal, all the Israelis wanted to and it's just one of those moments which just should have happened but didn't. But that does mean to say that whenever there's a willingness to start asking: What world are we creating for our children? - a solution has been there on the table and it's workable.

DON MCLEAN
Since you and I spoke last time of course this wall has been built. Now people talk about the injustice of the wall. Obviously you can see why the Jews want it because they want to stop suicide bombings but there is great injustice the wall is creating - all sorts of problems for the Palestinians:

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
What makes the barrier, and it's mainly a fence rather than a wall, so important is that it's a non-violent response to violence. It's a way of protecting the innocent but it is not a final statement about boundaries - nothing of the kind. It's a security protection and the second it's no longer needed it'll just come down.

DON MCLEAN
Well they definitely need our prayers and of course we'd like to be going back there and taking pilgrimages and that's something that's very very important.

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
Don, you know every Jewish prayer is a prayer for peace and they need it; both sides need it.

DON MCLEAN
There's also a lot in the News about immigration. In some quarters people feel scared of people from other lands coming here to Britain to live and work. You've spoken a lot about 'loving the stranger' - welcoming those who can add to the success of the community - but isn't it a natural reaction to be wary of others and people who might, dare I say, dilute our Britishness?

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
I think they enrich our Britishness to be perfectly honest with you when I look at the things the different groups have given us. Each group has contributed something to British life and the most dynamic societies in the world are always those that are most open to other groups - America, Britain; Israel itself is more or less a society built on asylum seekers - they've come to Israel from 103 different countries speaking 82 different languages. I mean it's wonderful. It's exhilarating.

DON MCLEAN
But the Jewish community that have come here have really, they consider themselves to be British don't they and they've assimilated very well?

Will all other groups do that do you think given time?

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
Well this afternoon I have the privilege of going to join the Sikhs who are celebrating the 400th anniversary of the First Reading of the Sikh Sacred Scriptures. It's going to be huge gathering in the Albert Hall and all sorts of figures from British life are going to be there and my goodness me, have they added something to Britain. They are such a wonderful group - enthusiastic, they love children. You know, they've brought new foods, new styles ...Sikhs are wonderful and you know, isn't it lovely that they've invited somebody like me to go and help them celebrate?

DON MCLEAN
No - I think it's the obvious thing to do personally:

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS The Bishop of London is going to be there - all sorts of - and you know in the end people who come here do love this country, they really do.

DON MCLEAN
Well we've got two Sikh families living in our road and you couldn't wish for better neighbours.

But you mentioned food and there's a programme starting - I don't know whether you know about this - it's on Channel 4 tomorrow at 8 o'clock in the evening. It's a series actually - it's the first of three - and it's called 'Jewish Law'. Now the first one is all about kosher inspectors and the ancient dietary laws. Are you pleased that a television channel is deciding to do a programme about your religion?

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
Yes, I think so Don. You see the thing that creates fear is just ignorance. If we don't know what people do in their homes and so on. If we don't know about other people's faith then we naturally fear it and that can lead to tension. So I think the more we share our traditions in this kind of way the better it gets.

DON MCLEAN
Well I'm sure everybody will understand Jewish people considerably better after they've watched the series and as I say, the first one is on tomorrow night on Channel 4 at 8 o'clock and it's called 'Jewish Law'.

Dr Jonathan, it's been marvellous to have you on the programme as normal but I know you're staying with us for our prayers and I thank you for that ...

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
Dear G-d, you who love peace, teach us to be at peace with ourselves so that we can make peace in the world. Teach us to see your presence in the face of a stranger that we may no longer fear the stranger. Teach us to cherish your gift of life that we may protect life and grant us your gift of love, to heal the hatreds of the world so that we may build and not destroy, heal not harm, in your name.

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