EDWARD STOURTON
Well a little earlier I spoke to the Chief Rabbi Dr Jonathan Sacks just before he flew out for today's meeting in Brussels and I asked him how we can really judge whether anti-semitism is on the rise or not:

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
Well I think we measure synagogue vandalisation, cemetery desecrations, attacks on individual Jews and we've also done a fair amount of monitoring of attitudes which do show that the levels of suspicion and prejudice are rising.

EDWARD STOURTON
So you feel you've got a pretty objective picture which suggests that this is indeed a growing problem?

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
You have to be objective here. You have to establish the facts because otherwise the wrong kind of atmosphere of fear and suspicion grows. We have to monitor it accurately and constantly.

EDWARD STOURTON
Do you in any way blame the European Commission and Romano Prodi for being part of the developments which have encouraged this?

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
No. I think Romano Prodi and the EU have responded with genuine responsibility. Today's Conference is a powerful statement from European Governments and the EU itself. Jacques Chirac in particular has denounced anti-semitism. He said any attack on Jews is an attack on France and I think we are beginning to see the EU understand the sheer size of the problem.

EDWARD STOURTON
And to what extent do you think that the picture that you're seeing within Europe is linked to the increasingly controversial debate about the policies of Israel?

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
Well when policy about Israel gets turned into demonisation then you're in dangerous territory. What is so important is that we see the Middle East as a political conflict, not a religious one, not a deeply ideological one and lower the temperature because otherwise it can have spill-off for Europe.

EDWARD STOURTON
But you think that's happening do you? You think that the process of criticism of Israel is turning into one of the demonisation of Jews?

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
Absolutely. I mean there is a conviction now, not only that it's legitimate to criticise Israel but also to demonise it, to blame it for the problems of the world and not to make a distinction between Israelis and Jews wherever they are. Now that is a seriously dangerous phenomenon.

EDWARD STOURTON
But it would also be wrong wouldn't it if people didn't feel able to make legitimate criticisms of the policies of Israel for fear of being accused of anti-semitism?

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
Legitimate criticism is part of the very texture of democratic debate and the more of it the better in terms of encouraging people to talk freely, Israelis and Palestinians, and come to some peaceful solution but it must be steered away from anything that resembles rate hate, demonisation or prejudice.

EDWARD STOURTON
I suppose that raises the difficulty of how you judge where that line should be drawn doesn't it?

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
Well you know you can't define it but you can recognise it as soon as you see it.

EDWARD STOURTON
And what do you really look for from the Conference today?

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
This will be a moment for Europe to take a stand. If it does, then we may be able to lower the levels of tension; if it doesn't, then I do fear for the future.

EDWARD STOURTON
And when you say 'take a stand' can you be a bit more specific. What would you like to hear from the Conference?

RABBI DR JONATHAN SACKS
No. 1 an agreement by European leaders to monitor anti-semitism and racism; No. 2 to be vigilant in bringing prosecution to those who attack, firebomb or incite to violence and stronger penalties and No. 3 I think I'm looking simply for a clear and categorical stance which spreads from Europe to I hope the United Nations where a draft Resolution is being prepared. If those three things happen, today we'll have achieved a great deal.

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